The Smiley Thread for the P3AT

[oldgranpa]

This is a summary of old reports on smileys, setback due to smileys, effects on velocity and wetpack results. Both the old 1st generation P3AT with an unmodified feed ramp and a modified ramp plus the new 2nd generation P3AT are included. The data is posted here in several pages as an archive, since the work will probably never be repeated. Those who have never owned a P3AT will probably find the data boring.

So here is the first....


First smiley tests with a modified feed ramp on a 1G .380acp Kel Tec P3AT

I made a few more tests and measurements, then did a ramp modification equal to the mod on a 2G P3AT. Subsequent tests showed a significant improvement.. Legend and measurements for the following picture follow...

The .380acp cartridges just below the numbers are unfired, new, with no smiley, for comparison. Cartridges above the numbers are with the 1G unmodified P3AT. Cartridges below the new, unfired, show smileys with the modified feed ramp (equal to 2G) that I call my 1-1/2G P3AT. It's obvious that all ammo brands are not the same. Ammo brand and setbacks are:

1.  Fed HydraShok, 90gr JHP, 1G, .009",  1-1/2G, .003"
2.  Rem UMC FMJ, 95gr, 1G, .050" & .060",  1-1/2G, .007"  .005"
3.  Win BEB, 95gr flat nose, 1G, .020",  1-1/2G, .012"
4.  Speer GD 90gr, JHP,  1-1/2G, no setback
5.  Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ, 1-1/2G, .022"
6.  Win USA 95gr flat nose, 1-1/2G, .004" & .010"
7.  Rem GS 102gr JHP,  1-1/2G, no setback
8.  Hornady XTP 90gr, JHP,  1-1/2G, .007"

[oldgranpa]

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: Final tests          
         
Got to the range this morning to do the final chronograph test and limited wetpack on the smiley rounds shown in the photo above. Typical Chrony values look like this..

Rem UMC 95gr FMJ
fresh ammo, no smiley, 814.6fps, 824.2fps, avg 819.4fps
rounds with smileys from 1G (no mod) feedramp, setback shown first
.050", 841.2fps
.060", 821.2fps
.0175", 820.6fps
.0085", 841.8fps average of 4 shots 832.2fps, increase over fresh ammo only 1.01%

rounds with smiley from 2G type feed ramp, setback shown first
.007", 794.3fps
.005", 800.8fps insignificant change.

Fed AmerEagle 95gr FMJ
fresh ammo, no smiley 819.1fps
with .022 setback, 872.1fps a 1.06% increase

Win USA 95gr FMJ flat nose
fresh ammo, no smiley, 809fps
ammo w/smileys, setback shown
.0045", 827.2fps
.010", 793.4fps max increase only 1.02%

Fed HydraShok 90gr JHP
fresh ammo, 871.6fps
round with a nick, .009" setback, 885.3fps 1.01%

So with the maximum velocity increase from setback of 1.06%, the chamber pressure should rise from 21,500psi SAAMI to approx 22,790psi. This is well within limits for the 1.8 safety factor built into the P3AT barrel.

Therefore we can conclude that even with worst setback from a smiley there should be no safety problem. Of course this comes with a disclaimer that some day there may be an anomoly and worse setback than seen here with dire consequences. Murphy's Law is always a concern. So if you have a problem don't say I said it wouldn't happen. Better to do the ramp mod if you haven't.

Now for the wetpack test on the JHP rounds from the smiley testing shown in the photo. I am not showing a photo since nothing new happened . All JHP rounds went the full 9" penetration in the wetpack. The FMJ round went 10+ stopping in the plywood backstop.
Fed HydraShok expanded.
Speer GoldDot expanded fine.
Rem GoldenSaber expanded with one petal unfolded.
Hornady XTP only partially expanded like previous tests.

These rounds had minor smiley nicks from the feed ramp "ears" and minimal setback. All had been fired from the 2G type feed ramp in my P3AT.
Conclusion? It appears minor nicks on a JHP round, with a 2G type feed ramp, do not affect normal expansion.

(Note: I still get a smiley with a round nose, FMJ round, when my pistol gets dirty and sooty after shooting about 20 rounds. That's normal. A clean pistol, with the ramp mod, and good JHP ammo (like Fed, GD, or GS) should be fine. I don't recommend carrying FMJ in the P3AT for CCW, self defense anyway.)

Cheers,
og........

[oldgranpa]

Here are the results of the wetpack tests with pocketgun's 1G P3AT smileys. Although his setbacks were not as severe as some I made with a 1G AT that I had, the results were nevertheless detrimental to the JHP rounds. The dents and distortion to the hollow point nose and cavity caused lack of good expansion in both Federal HydraShok and Speer GoldDot. Only the Remington GoldenSabre seemed to expand in spite of smiley damage. A Winchester SXT round with a 1 1/2G AT smiley also failed to expand. With a smiley from a 1 1/2 or 2G, the Speer GD did OK.  (A 1 1/2G is a "flyer cut" feed ramp in a 1G P3AT pistol, equal to a 2G ramp.)
The only conclusion I can reach is that a 1G, unmodified P3AT will not produce good results with JHP ammo, except maybe the Rem GoldenSabre. Note that FMJ ammo penetrated 12" and stopped at the plywood backing. This would result in overpenetration with the P3AT (equiv. to approx 18"gelatin). Therefore, those that say use FMJ for CCW in the P3AT are taking a big chance. And using JHP in a 1G unmodified is like using very expensive, low penetration FMJ.
The bottom row, row 3, in the picture shows plain rounds fired with a NAA Guardian 380 for comparison.
Legend for the picture....(rows 1 and 2 fired with a 2G P3AT, one round at a time loaded by hand.)

A. Rem GS 102gr JHP
row 1 plain rounds, no smiley, .571"exp, 6"penet. and .565"exp, 7+"penet.
row 2 1G smiley, .549"exp, 7+"penet.
row 3  NAA plain, .572"exp, 6"penet.

B. Fed HS 90gr JHP
row 1 plain rounds, no smiley, .444"exp. 8"penet. and .445"exp. 8"penet. shed jacket at 5"penet.
row 2 1G smiley, .360"partial, 8"penet.  1 1/2G and 2G smileys, .376"partial, 8" penet.
row 3  NAA plain, .512"exp. 9"penet.

C. Speer GD 90gr JHP
row 1 plain rounds, no smiley, .469"exp., 7+penet. and .470"exp, 7+"penet.
row 2 1G smiley, .352"partial, 8"penet. and 2G smiley, .473"exp., 8"penet.
row 3  NAA plain, 453"exp., 8"penet.

D.  Win SXT 95gr JHP
row 1 plain round, no smiley, .575"exp., 7"penet.
row 2 1 1/2G smiley, .353"partial, 8+"penet.
row 3  NAA plain, .570"exp., 6"penet.

And the FMJ was Rem UMC 95gr with 12"penetration stopped at plywood backing.
Sorry, we didn't have CorBon DPX available for this test.

[oldgranpa]

And here are some Chrony readings with plain rounds, and 1G smiley rounds, made using a 2G P3AT by loading 1 round at a time by hand.  (So as not to produce a smiley or make it worse.)
Also, a reading with the NAA Guardian 380.
The Chrony is fairly accurate and shows why plain Factory ammunition is not "match" ammo with velocity changing from round to round. Draw your own conclusions.

P3AT readings...fps mean and SD shown. Where no SD, only 1 reading was made.

1.  Rem GS 102gr JHP
     a. plain rounds, no smiley, 856.3, 13.7
     
2.  Fed HS 90gr JHP
     a. plain rounds, no smiley, 861.0,  18.4  (and a  previous test, 871.6fps)
     b. a previous test in July, 2006, smiley .009"setback, 885.3fps

3.  Speer GD, 90gr JHP
     a. plain rounds, no smiley, 895.9,  6.5
     b. 1G smiley round, .003"setback, 878.1

4.  Fed AE 95gr FMJ
     a. plain rounds, no smiley, 861.9,  14.1  (and a previous test, 819.1fps)
     b. 1G smiley, .015" setback, 823.0  (and a previous test, smiley .022"setback, 872fps)

5.  Rem UMC 95gr FMJ
    a.  plain rounds, no smiley, 875.0,  2.9  (and a previous test, 819.4fps different box!!)
    b. 1G smileys, .027&.036"setback,  870.6,  26.6  (and a previous test, 832.2fps)

6.  Win RangerT 95gr JHP
    a. plain rounds, no smiley, 890.2,  1.5

7.  Rem UMC/leadless, 95gr FNEB
    a. plain rounds, no smiley,  894.3,  13.8

8.  Geco 94gr FMJ
    a. plain rounds, no smiley, 812.3,  20.9

9.  S&B 92gr FMJ
    a. plain rounds, no smiley, 840.3,  9.4

10.  Independence 90gr FMJ
    a.  plain rounds, no smiley, 852.4,  28.1

11.  Win SXT 95gr JHP
    a. plain round, no smiley, 885.9

Rounds 6. thru 10. were extra furnished by pocketgun for Chrony tests, no smileys.

And here is my test of UMC 95gr FMJ, 6 rounds with the NAA 380....831.5fps mean,  SD 27.2
(NAA's own test of UMC got 860fps mean, SD 17....each box of ammo differs!!)
What does all this mean?  Like I said, draw your own conclusions.  But you can be sure that factory ammo is not "match" ammo and shouldn't be treated as such. Don't be surprised if your accuracy is not as good as you'd like it to be.

og
Closing remark...I don't think we have to worry about chamber pressure with smileys. But smileys with the unmodified 1G P3AT sure do seem to hurt JHP ammo. 

[oldgranpa]

PTLNSC provided a set of .380acp smileys made with his 1G unmodified P3AT to primarily complete our wetpack and Chrony tests with CorBon DPX ammo. Included with his set were Rem GoldenSabr and Winchester Ranger ammo with smileys. The picture below shows his smileys compared to original rounds I included without smileys. Column A is CorBon DPX 80gr copper, B is the Win Ranger 95gr, and C the Rem GoldenSabr 102gr. Row 1 and 2 are the plain rounds with no smiley and rows 3 and 4 show smileys, a little hard to see, but the damage and setback is there. A small picture showing detail of the CorBon smiley with out-of-roundness is also shown here. More smiley rounds, not shown, were sent to me for the Chrony tests. Setbacks will be shown with the Chrony readings. Next shown will be the wetpack results.

[oldgranpa]

The picture below shows the wetpack results with PTLNSC's smileys with a plain round, no smiley also shown. Included in the top "X" row are smileys made with my 2G P3AT ("flyer cut ramp") using what I call a "loose" magazine that allows the rounds to slide forward in the magazine (which would be a worst case). Column A is the CorBon DPX, B is Rem GoldenSabr, C is Win Ranger. Each round was shot by loading them 1 at a time with my P3AT into the wetpack. Note the Columns are not in same order as last picture.

You can see the results. Row 1, all three expanded nicely with plain, no smiley ammo. Expansions .624"CorBon, .645"Ranger, .620"GoldenSabr  all with penetration 8".

Row 2, .485"CorBon partial expansion, 8"penet.  Rem GS poor, 9"penet.  Ranger, .611"exp, 8" penet.

Row 3,  .521"CorBon partial exp, 8" penet.  Rem GS poor, 9" penet.  Ranger, .610"exp, 8"penet.

Row X, the 2G smileys, CorBon .599"exp, 8" penet.  Rem GS .570"exp, 8" penet.  UMC FMJ 12+" penetration.

Another, plain UMC 95gr FMJ, no smiley, not shown had 12+"penetration all the way to the plywood backing.

From this it appears that a 1G unmodified P3AT will cause damage to most brands of JHP that severly affects performance (see also previous test with pocketgun's smileys....). The results differ from our previous test with pocketgun's smileys with the Remington GoldenSabr. All P3AT's are not necessarily the same in how they produce the smileys and setback. The Ranger ammo did unusually well in this test.

[oldgranpa]

This thread does not show the entire history of smileys with the P3AT but only gives the last test data mainly to show setback and the effect on JHP ammo.

The thread will remain open for comments and questions. I'll answer the best as I can. And please note that the new 2G P3AT still produces a small smiley in spite of the modified feed ramp which is the fault of the MecGar magazine furnished with the pistol. That is a different story and maybe someday I can find time to post those findings.

Cheers,
og