Kahr P380

[twptommy]

If you are interested I have about 20 rounds of hornandy if you want me to mail it to you. I did an unscientific test and shot thru about 3 sheets of 1/2 wet old plywood, the winchester and monarch hollow went thru but the hornady only made it thru 2 with little expansion.

[oldgranpa]

thanks for the offer, but I'll have to limit my test to the three I noted. Those three have close to 1000fps from a keltec pistol. One site reported just a little over 900fps with a Bersa, longer barrel pistol with Hornady CD and less than 8" in a wetpack. Weather here still bitter cold so the test can wait.
og

[twoguns]

Howdy Mr. OG,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your safe shooting distance question sir.  I was reading through part of this thread and just came across it.

First I really don't think anyone can give you any absolutes, but then I know you already know that too sir.  So I will offer some guidelines for you and others to consider.

Even while still a local, and then later with all the federal agencies I worked for, in firearms training we were taught that a man holding a knife standing still, 7 YARDS (21 feet) from the average "highly trained ossifer" ( no it was not a typo, just in one of my moods today, lol) should consider them a threat that justified them using deadly force - once that knife armed person began to advance on them at all.  The reasoning behind this were several training films, that showed clearly that a man armed with a rubber knife, could advance on a trained officer and make blade contact before that officer could draw his weapon and fire two rounds.  These various films used multiple officers as the officers, and some were not able to completely draw their weapon before being stabbed.  Only one firearm instructor was able to fire two rounds, and he "cheated" by moving backwards during his response.  Otherwise he would have been "stabbed".

That 7 YARDS WITH A KNIFE VISIBLE guideline seems to still be fairly universal among police firearms instructors from what I can gather in discussing it with various instructors.  Since police are trained to that type of response, I would like to think that a civilian could possibly add a yard or two to that distance.  But I do stress "I would like to think".  That distance is taught regardless of the platform we are capable of drawing - back up weapon, primary duty weapon, rifle or shotgun - the threat exists regardless of how I am armed.

Again, just my personal opinion, I would think a reasonable minimum distance civilians should consider practicing from would be about 10 yards.  By that I mean, vary the distances you are from your target, but you would be good if you went back at least 10 yards in your training too, minimum.  These days, on permanent injury leave, knowing I will not be returning to duty, when I shoot I do go back to 25 yards still.  But that is just to keep myself sharp too, to be candid.  I think I would have a problem articulating why as basically a "civilian with credentials" I felt the need to employ deadly force at 25 yards.  While it could happen, for liability reasons, I think the circumstances would need to be nearly ideal (isolated area, no or very few good guys in the general area, etc.) to be able to properly articulate much beyond 25 yards.

I spend most of my distance shooting working myself out to 15 yards or so, with most of my serious work still being done between 7 and 15 yards.  Without meaning to sound "big headed" I have been shooting long enough I know I can put my rounds in a tight group in rapid fire within 7 yards.  So I spend most of my ammo keeping myself sharp working a bit further back.

Understand please sir, that I do not own a mousegun, so what I have suggested simply may not be realistic too.  I think each owner ultimately has to decide their maximum distance from the target with a mousegun.  But that said, I would still suggest folks at least do some serious 7 yard shooting, if not 10 yards too.  With a snub gun, like your Smith, I would suggest you go back with it at least to 10 if not 15 yards.  Those distances should cover most situations folks are likely to find themselves in for a self defense scenario.  I try to train myself to deal with the "worst situation" I am likely to face.  So if folks are proficient out to say 10 or 15 yards, then anything closer will simply be a bit easier/faster/tigher groups, based on the train for the worst approach.

Again these are certainly not absolutes, just some suggestions for folks to consider.  Hope it helps a little in giving you some things to think about.

twoguns

[whkento]

Good stuff, as always, Mr. TwoGuns.  Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective.   

[oldgranpa]

When I had my Sig P239 I could keep all shots in a 6"" circle at 25 yds, all in the 10 ring at 7 yds, and closer the pistol was capable of all shots in the X ring. The barrel is just less than 4". But full size grips and sights.

These darn mouseguns are a whole different story with their short barrels and miniature grips. Good accuracy is all in the black at 7 yds, and Hello!, with rapid fire many shots miss the target! So they're not much good beyond close up self defense. So a crazy man with a knife has the advantage closer than probably 10yds. Meaning, carrying a mousegun requires being alert to the surroundings and any possible threats. Then the best rule is get the heck out of there as fast as possible, or behind good cover and shoot only as a last resort. Whole different rules.

Not only that, but we all agree firepower is reduced. Why I'm looking for better .380 ammo. Later.

Cheers,
og

[Preacherman]

"the best rule is get the heck out of there as fast as possible"

Yup, I agree.  Or better: don't go there to begin with.  But my P3AT is a least better than a rock in my pocket.

[oldgranpa]

so true, Marshall, and thank goodness I don't have to go where there are possible threats anymore, being retired. Except perhaps WalMart. But the one here is in a rather peaceful part of town. Still requires a watchful eye, nevertheless.

Never know, that's why a pocketgun is with me at all times. And don't ever count that P3AT out. Nobody (except a totally crazy nut bombed out on grass) wants to get shot, no matter what the caliber.

And if I ever see a crazy nut bombed out on grass roaming around loose, I'm leaving the area, fast!

Cheers,
og